2017 - 18 ECU Thread

Discussion in 'Mods, Upgrades, Accessories and Products' started by nigelrb, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    I know how they fail as it’s happened to me multiple times on several different bikes on several race tracks.
    And what I mean about no problems is a ex bsb rider, thrashing its ass off with a 55/200 rear tyre on. Apart from loss of brakes several times under hard braking
     
  2. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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  3. nigelrb

    nigelrb Elite Member

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    ^^^
    Good video and good to hear more reference about the 2019 being 'sorted out'.

    The BMW continues to impress me, but I am put off buying one (in lieu of a 2020 Blade) by others' observations of sloppy plastics and poor build quality.:(
     
  4. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    But again - "fail" is only a valid comparison if a back to back test of stock tyre vs over sized tyre is made with specific reference to a correct and predictable traction control response to repeated similar inputs with the stock tyre then comparing the same and similar predicable traction control responses with an oversize tyre.

    Without comparative responses to comparable Traction Control events, the actual Torque Management System response is not being evaluated.

    It doesn't matter whether its an ex-BSB rider or a current club racer or street hack or a TKR test rider, if you are not comparing the actual Traction Control response to actual events that call for intervention its not a test of the bike so much as test of the rider and tyre grip..

    We have folks here in the USA that have taken their SP2 out on track with a stock sized tyre and reported TC intervening and while somewhat intrusive it corrected the slide event. They then swapped to a 200/55 and went out and with the extra traction available went much faster but when the tyre did begin to spin the Honda TC system made no attempt to intervene and manage the slide event and it was only the rider skill that prevented a crash - IOW the Torque Management System failed to notice the wheel spinning and failed to intervene at all and we have concluded this is due to the Torque Management System not knowing this was an actual Intervention Event because the system didn't even know the tyre was spinning.

    The extra traction available from a 200/55 slick/race tyre means the Traction Control response will be outside the normal system reaction envelope anyway as the street tyre against which the Traction Control system is developed and factory calibrated offers less traction than the race/slick tyre - so it stands to reason the stickier tyre may invoke Traction Control response at a different point in the operating envelope , but when there is no intervention at all it is reasonable to conclude the system is not working correctly due to lack of calibration.

    As for the 44 Teeth video, is there a definitive response as to what size tyres were used. I didn't see/hear/note that information. If they used stock tyre sizes then that is why they feel the system is sorted. If they used over-sized tyres without a comparison to stock TC Intervention behaviour then they cannot draw a definitive conclusion - they can only voice a subjective opinion.

    One cannot make definitive conclusions about the Torque Management System response UNLESS one also does the same tests in a controlled manner trying to invoke Torque Management events under the same circumstances with stock sized tyres.

    It should also be borne in mind that many of the complaints about the 2017/18 bikes were due to the bikes being tested with the oversized tyres. These tyre tests focused on the rubber being tested and they just chucked larger tyres on and then bitched and moaned about the response.

    *edit*
    And just to clarify, the folks are not whining and crying about the failure of the Honda TC system, they are just acknowledge the Honda is not a Traction Control equipped race/track bike with the stock ECU when using non-stock tyres and sprockets - they either ride around the limitation (treat the bike like an analog bike), switch to the HRC ECU (these are race/track only bikes) or move to one of the competing platforms (mostly Ducati, Yamaha or Kawasaki) that do offer tyre/sprocket/ABS/TC calibration options.
     
    #64 RC45, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  5. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    Rc45 yes the tyres used in that video where 200/55 and 190/55. I know because I walked up to the bike and read it with my own 2 eye balls.
    They had a 2017sp and 2 2019sp, I then walked up and asked the top technician from Bridgestone how is he running that tyre on that bike. He said easy I have changed the settings on the dash.
    So when a chap that I know then rides them back to back and says they have sorted it?????

    When I say sorted, I mean it does not give you a false neutral going down the box into a corner and send you off. The traction control issue is so minor compared to the above it’s off my radar. I have a throttle hand so can fix that problem. The neutrals how ever I can’t.
     
  6. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    Then he is a liar unless he is referring to the Autoblipper timing menu. But if he is talking about tyre and sprocket size he is mistaken or accessing a secret menu that no 2019 owner I have spoken to has found.

    "False neutral" can only be an issue if you are relying on Autoblipper for downshifts. There is no other electronic intervention related to downshifting at all.

    For Autoblipper to fail either the throttle is not at 0% or the calculated gear counter shaft speed is not within range. Autoblipper will shut itself off it is not happy with the "calculated wheel speed". Out of range tyre and sprocket size will cause this. It is possible the stock 2019 Autoblipper timing is better set and then maybe via the dash they have adjusted the Autoblipper timing - something that can be done on the 17/18 bikes as well.

    Or maybe the rider is sorted and is now shutting the throttle completely so Autoblipper can function correctly.;)

    You are correct, Autoblipper failure and TC events are chalk and cheese and unrelated.

    Nobody here cares about the autoblipper, as any issues are solved by using Woolich or H&M autoblipper.

    Remember, the Autoblipper is an add-on for the SC77, it is not integral to the Torque Management system.
     
    #66 RC45, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  7. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    How can nobody care about a factory part not working correctly? O that’s ok then I shall just go and replace it with a aftermarket part.

    So let me ask you this have you actually had any real problem with your bike while on track? People who keep calling everyone else a liar make me suspicious
     
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  8. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    05A0CBC9-5DF6-43C5-BDF9-18DCAD155786.jpeg
     
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  9. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    This is our bikes at the same event same 3 bike 3 different tyres, me riding faults with them all. Factory tyre fitted no more faults, tc or auto blipper
    So I think your theory is wrong
     
  10. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    The Autoblipper is a minor component of the 2017+ SC77 Total Control package - the main component is the Electronic Throttle Valve table controlled and managed Torque Management. The Traction Control, Wheelie Control and Engine Braking are the features baked in and available on all the SC77s - the Base, ABS, SP1 and SP2.

    All these bikes share the very same Torque Management system - the Autoblipper/Quick Shifter, ABS and Ohlins are all extra add-on overlays and can be collectively or individually disabled and have ZERO effect on the TC/WC/EB features.

    The very reason for adopting the digital version of the Fireblade is to access these TC/WC/EB features, they are all based off the RC213V-S feature set. The ABS, Ohlins electrics and QS are all after thoughts. Otherwise just buy an analog 2016 SP, install an HM Autoblipper and go race :) It will be a lot simpler in the long run.

    For this reason I have been focusing on the TC/WC/EB feature sets as they are also included in the HRC ECU - with the QS/Autoblipper being easily disabled and the job taken over by either a Woolich or HM unit.

    For 2019 the Autoblipper algorithm along with the TC/WC/EB and ABS algorithms have been tweaked, similarly to the tweaks in the 2019 HRC ECU - but at no point was there a statement from Honda/HRC that the tweaks to the features relying on wheel diameter and gear calibration have been configured to no longer require calibration - which is why on the HRC ECU the calibration is still front and center.

    You can be as suspicious as you want, but when a tyre company tech claims to have calibrated a feature via a stock interface that has no calibration option I am not going to believe another word they utter until they qualify their statement.

    Now the tech may have mispoken and called the Quickshifter timing menu the tyre size calibration menu - but there is no way he calibrated the ECU for a change in tyre size using a stock interface. If he did then he had access to the only such configured bike.

    But then again, this is an easy thing to find out - just go to a UK dealer and ask to see the calibration menu of 2019 bike, the US 2019 US bikes have no such menu option.

    As for my bike, I put 90 miles on it then tore it apart. In that 90 miles using the stock ECU I was able to invoke TC/WC/EB in a somewhat predictable and expected manner. This was all using stock Pirelli Diable Supercorsa SP tyre.

    As for the on track feedback, I have been lucky enough to keep in contact with a number of SP1/SP2 trackday riders/club racers/regional racers/global teams over the last 2 years to have a lot of back channel discussions and debriefing sessions gleaning far more data than I could gather on my own as a weekend hack at the track.
     
  11. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    No my theory is exactly correct.

    This is EXACTLY what I have been saying. Oversize tyre, faults experienced - stock size tyre no faults.

    I am elaborating with facts about what systems do what etc. I am not speculating about the technical details I am sharing them to correct possible misconceptions as to system function.
     
  12. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    So you have never 1st hand rode this model on track in factory form? With or without the factory tyres on?
    So you have never experienced the box full of neutrals? You say you have invoked the tc faults. On the road or race track?
     
  13. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    The so-called box of neutrals is no such thing - it is a shifter/quickshifter timing issue. Could be loose gear lever, poorly adjusted shift rod, rider not shutting throttle completely on downshift or dragging clutch on up-shift. Or unsuitable timing settings n the QS menu.

    As for not riding the bike on track, I dont need to, I have all the feedback I need from a bevy of riders I am in contact with. They are acting as my test rider fleet and cover the entire spectrum, street riders, track day riders, club racers, local & regional championship winners and WSBK teams using stock setup and race setup bikes.

    I also fundamentally understand exactly how the system works and what its intended function is. I have assisted a number of SP2 owners to get their bikes sorted, I have a direct contact with a group of owners/rider/racers for direct feedback on tests and results.

    Feedback is from SP2 owners/rider/racers #10, 26, 35, 41 50, 70 & 79 - as well as direct feedback from Ten Kate test riders and team managers when they where testing the WSBK, Superstock and track day bike setups.

    What exactly are we arguing about here?
     
  14. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    Not arguing, just wanted to grasp if the bike in question has ever tried to kill you 1st hand.

    So how would you explain the fault of coming towards your braking marker that you have just done 10 times before at x miles a hour and you change down exactly the same as before and you close the throttle 100% and click with you foot and you get no gear, just a - on your gear selection screen, then you try again and nothing and again, then you pull the clutch and try and nothing by this time your off the track. Bearing in mind we tested this over and over on possibly the only track in Europe with enough run off to do it without dying. How would you explain that situation. Other than scary as f&@k
     
    #74 nevsrevs, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  15. raphael

    raphael Elite Member

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  16. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    Can we change the thread title to include the 19 too please then. Since we are all in agreement that the 19 is still not trackable and I have absolutely no hope of resolving my woes
     
  17. nigelrb

    nigelrb Elite Member

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    I commenced the topic as a means of discussing the merits of the 2017 -18 SP2 being excluded from any ECU upgrades. As far as I am aware, there is no 2019 'build' SP2, although I have noted a couple of 2018 'J' models passed off as 2019.

    Changing the thread title will have no impact on whether or not the 2019 is trackable. I have made no agreement or comment on that point. The thread has expanded to detail various track aspects of the bike's electronic performance and abilities which might benefit other owners. That must be seen as a positive. If moderators feel changing the thread title might advance this cause I have no objection.
     
  18. RC45

    RC45 Active Member

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    Just to clarify I am NOT defending the bike - I created a topic titled "Honda admit 2017+ CBR1000RR is fundamentally flawed"
    https://www.1000rr.net/forums/1000r...dmit-2017-cbr1000rr-fundamentally-flawed.html
    on the 1000rr.net forum in March 2018, 60 days after I took delivery of my bike - that is how early on I knew Honda had screwed up the bike - I just want to be sure we are separating operator, mods and misunderstood reasons for failure from actual design and operational flaws.

    Not sure who he is agreeing with.

    If you disable Autoblipper and you use the clutch you should never experience any such mis-down shifts. I have had folks do this test and that is what lead us to believe this is not a mechanical fault in the gear box but only related to QS Autoblipper malfunction. You can also induce it by simply changing sprockets. Autoblipper self shutting off from counter shaft speed confusion was a behavior Ten Kate let me know about in early 2017. But the problem is if the tyre or sprockets are different the Autobipper will work sometimes but then fail at another time when the instantaneous countershaft speed was out of an expected range - what ever that is.

    On the race kit one of the first recommended changes is a new gear speed sensor as well a pucka load cell Quickshift sensor rather than the semi-switch sensor unit Honda uses on our bikes.

    As to the above scenario - What is the setup of the bike? The exact setup.

    Tyre size.
    Sprockets sizes.
    Rear sets.
    GP or standard shift pattern.
    Firmness of shift action.
    QS Down Shift force levels set in menu.
    Confidence level that throttle is at 0% vs a few % open? The throttle only has about 60* movement so 2* of throttle movement is 2.4% throttle.

    And just for some relief from the brain gymnastics these analysis and diagnoses call for here is a video of last nights first startup with my never ending project SP2 with the new 2019 HRC ECU image.

     
  19. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    Nigelrb my comment ref the 19 was tongue in cheek, what I would really like to know is will the 19 be just as un nerving at the previous years. Since the only people that have commented so far are journalists and they have said the bike is better. HOW?
     
  20. nevsrevs

    nevsrevs New Member

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    Rc45. This is what we now do for safety is turn it off. But it’s annoying since we paid for the bloody thing to work.
    Bikes under test were as follows
    2018 sp Bridgestone vo2 200/55/17 rear, lightech rear set gp shift.
    2018 sp bog standard 200/55/17 sc2 rear
    2018 sp bog standard 190/55/17 sc2 rear

    All had the same problem with blipper, tc interfered
    To different degrees on all bikes
     

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