Being fair isn't enough

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Barstewardsquad, Jul 31, 2020.

  1. Barstewardsquad

    Barstewardsquad God Like

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    Apparently the SJWs aren't happy that Orchestras have blind auditions where the musicians play behind a screen so that they are solely judged on their musical abillity. They are now demanding that the musicians are seen so that the make-up of the orchestra reflects the social make-up of their area, and not just having the best avaiable players.

    So ironic when the blind audition process was introduced to eliminate prejudice of race, creed, sexuality, disability or appearance.

    https://www.amren.com/news/2020/07/to-make-orchestras-more-diverse-end-blind-auditions/
     
  2. GappySmeg

    GappySmeg Well-Known Member

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    Did you actually read the whole article? Or was it only ever a hook to justify a bit of gammon-faced rage?

    To expand, the author of that article posed some interesting questions about the nature of integration, whether it needs a "helping hand" sometimes, and also whether a person's worth to the body as a whole comes from more than their raw skill.
    I thought it was interesting, and didn't come across at all "SJW" or preachy.

    To my mind, it has parallels with the arguments about having an openly gay footballer in the upper echelons of the game. Perhaps it would be worth shoehorning an openly gay footballer in to a team, even though their raw talent didn't quite deserve, in order to broaden football's appeal and break down a few more barriers. Would probably pay off financially in the long run too. Obviously the professional (monied) nature of the game would never allow this to happen.

    Anyway... perhaps I read too much in to your post, and it's better to just take things at face value and get all upset and angry about a perceived slight that didn't actually exist.
     
    #2 GappySmeg, Aug 1, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  3. Barstewardsquad

    Barstewardsquad God Like

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    I actually read the article having heard it discussed. I find it ridiculous and a sad indictment of society when a totally unbiased judgment isn't allowed because some people think that a person with less ability should be chosen purely because of their race etc., especially as the process was put in place to prevent discrimination.

    Maybe MotoGP should be forced to signs riders from designated groups rather than just getting the best riders they can, or rapper based records should be judged on tbe diversity of the artists they sign up rather than their ability at rapping.
     
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  4. GappySmeg

    GappySmeg Well-Known Member

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    To be clear, I'm not saying I agree with the author.

    My point was really that you broad-brushed and stated that "...SJWs aren't happy..." yadda yadda when in actual fact, the article is the well thought out musings of one author!

    And on that topic:
    But that's not what the article was saying!
    It was proposing that the flaw in the "blind audition" system is that it results in pure talent winning through, when a bigger picture view might conclude that an artists worth to the group, in bringing new views, opinions, viewpoints, might be worth more than their raw talent.

    As someone involved in recruiting for teams, I find that a very current (and contentious) yet interesting view.

    Your MotoGP point:- there are have been cases in motorsport where the driver recruited was not the best, but could bring other skills to the table (e.g. chassis development skills).
    Which is literally the exact point of the article!!!

    Your rapper point:- absolutely! If NWA had a middle-class white bloke in their ranks, perhaps they wouldn't have been so obsessed with blaming the police for everything. ;)
     
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  5. Kevin1

    Kevin1 Elite Member

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    I believe it's called positive discrimination. A concept that has been around a long time (70's, in my case but it could be longer), to get everything more diverse. Yes, it means that sometimes the best people for the job, don't get the job.
     
  6. Mattie660

    Mattie660 Elite Member

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    They will have to start a lawsuit as students have done in US as a result of being turned away from top universities, as they enforce diversity. There are ongoing lawsuits against Harvard and University of North Carolina. The Harvard case one group of well performing Chinese/Asian American background students with top scores have been routinely sidelined over the years in favor of other ethnic students with lower grades - in the name of diversity. They have taken out a lawsuit against Harvard that will end up in the Supreme Court.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...ver-affirmative-action-shifts-unc-chapel-hill
     
    #6 Mattie660, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  7. GappySmeg

    GappySmeg Well-Known Member

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    But is that a fair analogy to the one in the OP?

    An orchestra (much like the dev teams I have recruited for) needs to function as a unit, as well as a collection of individuals. Much like a football team where the old cliche is you pick the best TEAM, not necessarily the best players. So the article is asking that, under that scenario, is it ok to hire the best person for the team, not necessarily the best person full stop?

    I'm not sure the "best team" argument applies to a set of university admissions, so maybe they're rightfully being sued. Would be interesting to know if they're using the "best team" argument as their defence.

    Anyway, it's an interesting debate. (possibly the wrong forum for that, though :D )
     
  8. Mattie660

    Mattie660 Elite Member

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    In the original article they do not say that blind auditions produced bad orchestras that failed as a team. They say that the introduction of that system of blind auditions was transformative.

    There is no evidence that ideological intervention in the selection process will produce better orchestras acting any better as a team, but that is not the stated result that they are looking for.

    As for this being a fair analogy with the Harvard lawsuit - fairness is subjective. Different ideological viewpoints will see fairness differently. However the comparison has merit as the selection process is being interrupted on ideological grounds for the supposed benefit to a collective.
     

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