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Discussion in 'General 1000RR Discussion' started by jimglasgow, Oct 18, 2013.
I can only go by my own experiences with Dobles in Coulsdon and they have always been very good with all my bikes, 3 Blades and 1 SP1, never had any problems at all even when they dropped my just sprayed SP they just got it re done very quickly with no probs. Also when my 2010 Blade was ready for collection they said the engine didn't sound right, like a box of spanners, so they got in touch with Honda and they sent over a brand new bike to replace it, they swapped all the panels over as I had it painted in Swan colours and re done all the paperwork very quickly.
I have to add Chiswick Honda have also provided me with impeccable service. Unfortunately my Blade has not been as bullet proof as my previous Hondas
In the year Iv'e owned my Blade I've have the following fail:
ABS ( 2 times) - full abs bleed and calliper service
Headstock Bearing - replaced
Leaking fork seals - replaced
Front Bearing - replaced
and most lately my starter motor - replaced
My claims have been close to 2 grand!!!
All have been covered by my extended warranty without question, and both Honda Warranty and Chiswick Honda have been absolutely wonderful in sorting out my problems.
And get this, my Blade has never been serviced by Honda during my ownership, not even by a VAT reg. garage (ie by me or a mate) and have been honest about this, so Honda UK have the right not to pay out on my claims.
I have to give credit where credits's due but both Honda UK and Chiswick have been stars!
This is truly remarkable. He is actually describing the EXACT fault that I (and I assume the others) are experiencing. He is only "incorrect" in assuming that it only happens when bike is stopped. It happens whenever the brake lever is applied, partially released and then quickly reapplied again. He simply didn't ride the bike long enough. I can make mine do it at will.
I don't mean any disrespect, but I completely disagree with your conclusions. While I'm glad that your problem seems to be resolved here's my experience. I've been battling this problem since the day I got my bike new from a dealership.
Here's what I just posted in the "sticky" but it's equally appropriate here:
Out of exasperation, i decided to follow up on some stuff that i've read (on this as well as other sites) and can dispel some "myths" and hopefully save others a lot of work:
Myth #1: The problem is caused by air in the brake lines
Well, I have the typical 2012 CABS brake lever problem so I decided that even after the dealer bled the lines completely twice, I would do it myself since others feel that Honda Mechanics aren't capable of properly bleeding the brake lines. I'm not talking about a piddly "conventional line" bleed. I bled the whole damn thing! And let me tell you brothers, it's a pain in the ass. Don't believe anyone who tells you they did it "in a couple of hours before riding". Bullshit! This system is the worst planned bit of engineering on the planet. Routine maintenance that is completely inaccessible! Just plain stupid.
First you must remove all the following plastics: Air Intake Cover; left and right Air Duct Covers; Lower Cowl, L&R Middle Cowls; Left Intake Air Duct; & Left Rear under Cover. Don't even think about trying this without the Service Manual. Then you must drain and remove the Radiator and a bunch of crap that goes with it - real pain in the arse. Then off comes the muffler, and finally the exhaust header. All this to get at the stupid "heat shield" which covers the bleed bleed valve on the front power modulator. There is a possibility that you could get by leaving the headers, but it's really tricky so I decided to go for exposure. I didn't want to wreck anything. Aside from the HUGE waste of time, there is an associated cost:
radiator drain crush washer : $3.93
exhaust gasket $5.03 x 4 : $20.12 (must be replaced)
muffler gasket : very expensive (I can't remember, but around $30. Needless to say I re-used it)
Dot 4 brake fluid $10.99/bottle x 2 minimum: $22
Motocool factory coolant $16.31/L x 3: $48.93
Thats $93 in supplies! And you can't test the brakes until you get it all back to gather, so if there's still a problem, you will have to start all over again (another $93!)
Anyway, I thoroughly bled the front brake system (as per service manual) which is time consuming, but easy compared to getting at it. I can tell you all with absolute certainty, there wasn't a single, solitary molecule of air anywhere in the system! Makes sense. Where would it come from anyways? So forget all the conjecture you read on the net. Air is simply not the problem - period.
Myth #2: Heat. It's the location of the of the damn Front Power Modulator - so close to the headers that somehow causes the problem.
Makes sense; bad place to put brake stuff. It even seems like the problem really starts up once the bike is warmed up and seems to get worse in "stop and go" traffic when the bike gets really hot. Problem is, it's just a bit too simplistic. I'm sure Honda Engineers took proximity to hot components into account when they "designed" the system, but others have reported fixing the problem by heat shielding, so I figured what the hell. Bikes apart anyways, so I might as well. Here's what I did:
-completely coated heat shield with Lava Mat heat shielding
-covered the steel line from the modulator to the valve unit with reflective heat tape
-completely wrapped the exhaust headers with exhaust wrap to eliminate the heat source in the first place
Cost was about $75 (plus time)
Results: Not one bit of F**n difference. Lever to the grips on first ride within 1 minute (and about every minute thereafter)!!!! No difference what so ever. This is the problem with "internet advice". It's often completely wrong. Oh well, it's better than Honda can do.
So lets sum up:
1) It's not heat
2) It's not air
3) It happens on every C-ABS bike that I've been able to get my hands on (600rr as well as 1000rr)
4) Honda says they've never heard of it, yet the internet is littered with reports the of exact same problem)
6) Bleeding system won't help
Conclusion: This is sounding more and more like a "DESIGN FLAW" in the system itself. There will be no easy fix for users like myself. I doubt that Honda has any idea what the problem is, or even cares! THis is a company that manufactures 'Super Bikes' that just aren't that super, and could care less. It would be nice if Honda would deal with this and save customers like myself all this hassle. (and I actually have an extended warrantee!)
Sorry I can't offer any solutions, but at least I can save others a lot of time and money on futile modifications. I can not see how changing the power modulator would make any difference as there is no "connection" between the modulator and the lever feel. The problem MUST reside within the VALVE UNIT. That's the only component which is directly "connected" to the lever. It contains the "stroke simulator" as well as all the valves which channel the brake fluid. I've studied the schematics for hours, and can simply not figure out where the brake fluid is going when the lever moves closer to the grips. Only thing I can think of is the STROKE SIMULATOR isn't as good as Honda would have you believe, and it simply moves more or less at random intervals. The only other possibility is that the fluid in the VALVE UNIT is somehow "bypassing" a valve and thereby temporarily increasing the capacitance of the system and somehow getting back in the system to make the next pull normal - pretty far fetched if you ask me
It really is bizarre that a considerable amount of abs owners are experiencing the problem whilst others appear to have either not or been reported as resolved by bleeding. Regardless, there's clearly a problem that requires some sort of official statement from Honda that explains the issue.
I'm gutted for those that are experiencing the issue, it must be spoiling your riding experience of what is other wise a great bike. I've never ridden a blade with abs, when I purchased mine in 2010 I didn't even consider the abs option. At the time there wasn't any of reports of failings, my choice was based upon the fact I'd never had a bike with it so wouldn't miss it and that I have another bike without so did not want become reliant upon something and then jump on a bike without it. (I swap between bikes often, sometimes daily). Three years on the first thing I do I l I jump on the wife's Monster is turn the abs and traction off.
This is going to sound ridiculous to some and isn't meant as a get out for Honda. How hard would it be to completely bypass the system? I've not really studied an abs bike in detail, but are the callipers the same as non abs bikes? Is it as simple as a master cylinder and brake line change?
Firstly I’m sorry that your braking system is still not working after all you have done in trying to rectify it. As I have already wrote on this forum, I had the same issue as others with the C-ABS system failing on a very regular bases which isn't a good thing. Mine is now sorted and I’ve been very happy with it since I rectified the problem.
I did not replace ANY of the C-ABS brake components, only the brake fluid. What I found with mine was when I did the c-abs bleed (twice) but not the front power unit; I still had the fault reappear exactly as before. It was only when I carried out another bleed including the front power unit, did the fault stop. The only logical reason that anyone could deduce from that is there was an issue contained within the front power unit. I never replaced or removed the front power unit from the bike, I only bled it. I fitted the heat reflective tape as I know of other issues which have been caused due to heat soak/transfer. Would the fault still have been gone if I never fitted the heat tape, "Yes" but fitting it I hope to reduce heat transfer/soak.
As far as; "I'm sure Honda Engineers took proximity to hot components into account when they "designed" the system". Honda and others have made that mistake before; just ask anyone that has had a regulator/rectifier fail on them due to generated heat from the engine and no cool air being passed across it to cool it. The fix for that was to refit it in a position which was away from heat from the engine and also got cold air across it or if you didn't move it, fit a small computer CPU fan on top of it to help cool it. Aprilia, rear shock damping reduced to a min once heat has transferred from exhaust pipe work being routed next to the shock. Fix, either fit an after market shock or fit exhaust wrap. Aprilia, rear brake hardly working after a short duration due to location of the rear brake res by the exhaust system and the list goes on.
As far as removing the ABS systems from a bike that had it fitted at the factory it would be a fairly simple task getting the actual functual braking system to apply the brakes at the wheel working.
The harder part and more trial n error proceedure comes when you start dealing with the electronic components as some of these would have to be kept on the bike to stop the ABS lights from being perminantly lit on the dash which would result in an MOT failure.
Another possible route would be to swap the loom and clocks from a non abs unit to the abs bike to remove the system completely but this would probably be at considerable expense and may still have other electronic differences which could crop up!
I'm glad it all worked for you. I tried the exact same thing you did and even went one further (used "lava mat" for heat shield which has much better heat shielding properties than the reflective tape that you used and also put on Header Wrap). This should have at least improved things but sadly it made no difference what so ever. My bleeding was absolutely meticulous and I can confidently say there was no air in the system.
In retrospect, I think we are dealing with somewhat different problems in our bikes. I seem to recall your blade was fine initially, and only developed problems after years of use. This would go along with the ingress of air in the system. Mine was much different. It had the problem from the "get go". I purchased the blade brand new and noticed the brake problem on the very first ride (unfortunately not the test ride before the purchase - which is not surprising as I only rode it on the highway and didn't use the brakes much). The symptoms haven't changed at all over time and the brakes behave as they did the day I bought it.
Regardless, I have done everything I could to fix the problem and it remains unchanged. I hope that Honda doesn't try to weasel out of the warranty
because I "modified" the heat shield. I will now let them replace the Power Modulator altogether (as they have authorized this repair already and the part is in) and if this fails, I will insist that they replace the Valve Unit. If that doesn't do the trick, then the ECU. By that time, I will have been away from riding for so long that I will probably quit altogether. I'm actually riding less and less each year, and just wanted the blade to be my "last bike" to ride on sunny Sundays now and again. Honda's probably doing me a favour.
It would be less hassle just to p/x the fecker for sumat else if it's causing U this much trouble.
What like a GSXR 750 ...Best move I have made.
Tried that.... was getting hammered so know this year at least
.........and you could also run up a set of curtains with it when you're not riding it!
You just gotta poke at the bear don't you???
Yep your correct, unlike yours where you had the problem from the go, I bought my bike which was nearly 2 years old and had just over 2,000m on the clock and the brakes were perfect. A year down the line and the problems started. I feel for you, modding the heat shield should not be an excuse to refuse a warranty claim. If you’re worried about it, order another one from Honda or get one off ebay.
Good luck with it and keep us all posted.
Glad I never bought the ABS Blade
Bought a 2011 blade great bike but had abs problems, took it back and they said it would be done under warranty but if nothing was found faulty I would be charged £700.00 Labour. So changed for a 2012 non abs, so far brakes are great.
After reading and hearing about so many of the people with issues on the abs blade, I'd also like to say that I've got a 2011 abs blade and I've never had any problems. Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones. If I'd had the problems some people mention, it would probably make me steer clear of Hondas in the future.
I could easily remove the heat shielding, but I can't bear the pain in the ass it would be to get at it again!!!! Besides, I think its a good idea regardless if it fixed the problem or not. Honda Canada will be replacing the front Power Modulator as well as the front Valve Unit under warranty (although they are unaware of my "heat shielding") even though my dealer is completely convinced that this is simply "how C-ABS works, and that ALL units will exhibit this annoying tendency". Of course they also thought that it was because I had my lever position dialed in a bit, and have never even seen another C-ABS equipped bike, let alone worked on one!
Speaking on the telephone with Honda Canada Customer Service on this issue is certainly one of the most frustrating experiences of my motorcycling career. All that I ever wanted was to speak with someone who actually knew what they were talking about - apparently not the "Honda way". They actually seem to exhibit contempt for loyal customers! Go figure.
OK forum, its official, received an e mail from VOSA tonight.
After testing by Honda and VOSA engineers the reports of brake issues on C-ABS Blades cannot be reproduced and as such the case is closed.
Also noted that Honda contacted dealers who had customers report issues on C-ABS Blades, but not a single Honda dealer who was contacted in the UK has ever experienced braking issues on a C-ABS Blade.
So there you have it, all the parts replaced under warranty, all the brake bleeds under goodwill and warranty, the whole shooting match has been done without any technical evidence found to justify doing it all.
It appears very strange that the manufacturer has authorised their service agents to change parts in response to customer complaints when no issue has ever been found, why would they do that?
How would they ever know what part to change if there is no evidence to suggest any component is faulty?
Not sure if VOSA ever asked such a simple direct question as that.
So I guess that makes every single one of us who has written on forums, complained to Honda in various countries, gone back and forth to dealers countless times, had parts changed, bikes bled unsuccessfully by expert techs, who had to do it 2 or 3 times before the ECU agreed it was done right, ended up selling bikes to be shot of the problems, ultimately we are all complete liars and have made it all up.
Just gobsmacked that in this modern world of consumer protectionism such a serious issue such as this is just being swept under the carpet.
It is rather ironic that I updated VOSA today that my bike had another brake failure episode from 50 mph and then I receive their official case closed letter, obviously after 35 years of riding experience, it would appear that I cannot tell the difference between the bike slowing down when I operate the brake lever, and it failing to respond when I operate the brake lever.